AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: But quite a few people who were involved in this announcement on the other side of this, you know, this two-month set of programs, were not happy at all. The word home is a meditation on conditions necessitated by America’s pandemic response in 2020, in a way that circles back to the originals as symbolic of sheltering and/or self-care. CYNTHIA CARR: None of them were a part of it? So he didn't want anyone to know, and after Don died, I of course—Jorge found out, so we got together. We needed it to be longer because there were several levels of approval. CYNTHIA CARR: Or talk about it, you know. We had a meeting space that ACT UP rented. So, we did not do that. They were doing surveillance on—you were basically being asked to report names, so there were people who resisted getting tested, and I assumed that I had HIV because Don and I had unprotected sex. And it says, "54 percent of people with AIDS in New York City are Black or Hispanic…AIDS is the number one killer of women between the ages of 24 and 29 in New York City…By 1991, more people will have died of AIDS than in the entire Vietnam War. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: Because I had no interest in a museum project. I was dead-set against the Biennale. And then we sort of went away in between meetings to look for images. And we had done that Je Me Souviens project, which kind of blew up in our face because we used a secessionist slogan without knowing that it had other implications. I met Avram Finkelstein in 2011 while working on the Pop-Up Museum of Queer History—a series of temporary installations in New York City, designed to make sense of queer peoplehood by reflecting on our past. And eventually, the wife of the man who hired him to buy art hired him to be this business manager for a school for emotionally disturbed kids that I, when I was a kid, I sometimes worked at. There's a couple of paragraphs explaining each color. CYNTHIA CARR: Was it the Silence = Death Collective that was part of it, or none—. And the group was sort of winnowing down to a core group. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: And we had this idea that, at the time you could buyThe New York Times at vending machines in New York City. But we decided, subsequently, when we did our first commission project in America, which was—a few months after this we began to work on that—which was the Kissing Doesn't Kill image. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: And my dad was Joseph Finkelstein. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: You know that, but I also make this connection between that and Polari, which—this is going to be a huge, pan-historic leap, but do you know about Polari? And, in fact, after the window came down, that following year at the Gay Pride March, ACT UP chose Let the Record Show as the theme of their marching presence. But you—I didn't know until I started working on this book that a gay man and a lesbian who were both in—who had security clearances. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: Clean data is data that's easier to assemble, that's more linear. But you would also be shocked to hear one of the most terrible things about this is at the time we did this conference, Sean Strub, who organized this—who's organized this conference, was telling me that the majority of gay men feel like there should be laws against knowingly exposing someone to HIV. It doesn't talk about—it completely throws a cloak of invisibility over HIV criminalization cases where there were people in America in jail for 20 years because they've been accused by someone of knowingly exposing them to HIV, even if they haven't been—haven't contracted the virus. And then there were project-by-project committees that were basically to make a demonstration happen, or do research into a very specific issue that related to some other work that the organization was doing. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: And everyone in my affinity group is involved in it as was I. So—. View Avram Finkelstein’s profile on LinkedIn, the world's largest professional community. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: But we also—we wheatpasted it on the same block that Maria lived on, on 10th Street right off Avenue A. He was super nervous, and for some reason I wasn't, but when my mom said that I started to get very nervous about it. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: So, I think the image of same-sex couples kissing were extremely charged. So the red in the red banner says, "Who thrives? AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: Other sources say that they—that actually the United States Information Agency helped us navigate it. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: I wanted to go to Cooper Union my entire life. Almost every bus, or with great frequency many buses, had Benetton ads on them, and there were Benetton stores everywhere. CYNTHIA CARR: Well, just to follow up on what happened in Chicago where—when this poster was—this is along the el line, the CTA, the Chicago Transit Authority, the el—, CYNTHIA CARR: And there's a poster here on the platform which was defaced. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: And that's how I knew about him. Yeah. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: —the work I'm most known for. You, like, mounted it on—you know, so you could carry it. And it takes away—it not only talks about the ways in which greed and indifference make AIDS a political crisis, it removes the question of the political crisis, and it will remove the word AIDS. CYNTHIA CARR: Oh, it's funny, because, in a way, the images are—I mean, they're lines of subway drawings, so it looks like they're simple, but what you're describing is so labor-intensive, you know? People's fears, anxieties, prejudices, anger about what it means to protect oneself, or what it means to be living with HIV, or what it means to be a sexual gay men, you know—how to have sex in this world. And I started taking pictures of them, and I remember that line in Ginsberg's Howl, it's the—it's the last part. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: Yeah. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: Only in New York, and it was the third city. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: And, at the time, Todd Haynes was in the collective, Robert Vazquez. It was not done for straight men's enjoyment, was a Victorian image that, when we submitted it to the women's caucus, it was—it—we didn't love it. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: Tom Kalin was a student of hers, and we knew what font she used, and we took her—we intentionally took it, to signal to her that—you could never say her work wasn't politically engaged, but she had yet to take on AIDS. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: Yeah. But she was bare-breasted, whatever the statue was, and he covered the statue. I've done Flash Collectives that were maybe around six. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: And there were a lot of sex shops in the area. CYNTHIA CARR: Uh-huh. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: And I don't know that we covered every single box but we covered every one we could find within a one-night period, which would have been probably between 2:00 in the morning and dawn. We didn't want to make it about doing battle with The New York Times or being taken to the—to court over it. There were like 23 people in my affinity group. Avram Finkelstein is an artist, activist and writer living in Brooklyn, and a founding member of the Silence=Death and Gran Fury collectives, and is featured in the artist oral history project at the Smithsonian’s Archives of American Art. 2012 Jim Hubbard, "United in Anger: A History of ACT UP," Documentary, 2012. These—this produce—these prejudices must be wiped out before the AIDS crisis can be solved. I was aware—I did used to do that work myself. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: We're talking about 1983, that kiss, and he died in 1984. Hey, actually, [Aaron] Lecklider talked about it this last Friday at the conference we were at. So they met at a lefty summer camp. Working with autistic kids. You're just looking at a poster and it's stripped of all of its agency, and I think that's where political graphics are very different from video, in that video carries context with it. CYNTHIA CARR: Boy, I never realized that it was—that everything was painted over, like, probably every day or every few hours. It wasn't a political collective. CYNTHIA CARR: Yeah. An interview with Avram Finkelstein conducted 2016 April 25-May 23, by Cynthia Carr, for the Archives of American Art's Visual Arts and the AIDS Epidemic: An Oral History Project, at Finkelstein's home and studio in Brooklyn, New York. CYNTHIA CARR: And that happened because the scientists there thought it wasn't important? It didn't come from Larry, it didn't come from Tim Sweeney, it didn't come from Vivian Shapiro, Marie Manion, any of the people facilitating it. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: And in the libraries we did them—we did two versions of the postcard. They just, like that, and Oscar Wilde said the triangle's pointing in the wrong direction, so it's historically inaccurate so we will not put it in the window. CYNTHIA CARR: Right, right. And I somehow thought that there was something wrong with that. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: Which, one couldn't expect a better—a more public airing of the questions. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: I should say it's also way before the many rulings about intellectual property that have affected other artists. It was horrible. But I think I went to—Jim Fouratt did that Easter be-in at sheep meadow. It's so—. CYNTHIA CARR: Right, and then it eventually was translated into other languages and, you know, really started—it's something, it's like a little a pebble thrown in and a huge wave resulted in this ocean or something, but—. And, you know, it creates—it—I felt it creates the—helps create a cushion between people who weren't involved in HIV/AIDS and the rest of the world. I wondered if we—I mean, just for purposes of this, I wondered if it would be good to maybe say what came of that, or what it looked like—that it was images of politicians, and then quotes from them. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: The Tompkins Square riots. Yeah, it's gestural—. So I'm trying to shoehorn this very particular outsider's perspective into just about everything that I do. [Laughs. I was brought in by Eric Sawyer who's the community liaison for UNAIDS, and the UNODC was interested in having me curate a show because a large part of the burgeoning epidemic in Eastern Europe has to do with IV drug use. The other is the way in which history functions, which is very mediated by power structures. CYNTHIA CARR: Yeah. And he had a student who took a photograph of someone's hand, and my father thought it was so incredibly trite. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: She was great. By Avram Finkelstein, author of After Silence: A History of AIDS through Its Images. CYNTHIA CARR: And you had seen that at age 4 or something? AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: So I drew a painting of a—I was so influenced by Matisse, and I drew an outline of a woman, a nude, and I was so embarrassed that I had done it that I started painting inside and outside her—these lines to sort of obscure it. So that took a tremendous amount of time. But they would frequently be 15 different people. So I suggested to this Helix Flash Collective that we do a project for Gay Pride and we actually—we had—we made two projects. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: I didn't want a part of anything having to do with the art world. CYNTHIA CARR: And the Women's Movement was pretty active at that point, I think. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: Then we did the Kissing Doesn't Kill, Greed and Indifference Do bus side for AMFAR. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: The United Nations Office of Drug and Crime. Unfortunately, I sent my papers to NYU and I had a journal in it, and the journal has the notes from these sessions. So once this thing was on display, then what was the reaction? AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: But that isn't actually what happened. And underneath the spinning wheel, that window was entirely covered in pink florescent feathers. Since I was a little kid I was like, "I'm going to Cooper Union." The card filled up, I believe, while we were in the middle of discussing this Flash Collective that had to do with the rainbow flag, and that was with the Helix Queer Performance Collective. Or—, AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: They funded it in New York and I'm not sure how that came to be. ", AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: So I'd look at my sister and I said, "Well, what did you think she meant by that? AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: And so there were six of us in this collective, and we met every week, we had potlucks—. But I think it's one of the—this is—you know there were—there are many types of political engagements. Transcript is available on the Archives of American Art's website. I wrote a piece on the pharmaceutical industrial complex. Finkelstein's archive can be found at the Fales Library and Special Collections at New York University. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: The Helix Queer Performance Network is Dan Fishback's project that he assembled, which is the Hemispheric Institute, La MaMa, and Brooklyn Arts Exchange, BAX. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: They were Xeroxed flyers. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: When was that film out? So there was this throw down that was happening, culturally. ], AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: It is in my book. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: But then, of course, there's a part of me that—there's a whole host of things I wish I had never seen. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: One of the great poems of all time. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: Whether we should move the sailor insignia from their uniforms. Everyone must have equal access to healthcare, education, and housing. CYNTHIA CARR: Right. Home; 1933/1984/2020; Untitled, 1972; Subway Drawings; AIDS 2.0. Use your power. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: So it was probably the third meeting and because we were such a small collective we had decided that two people could be a quorum if there was a time-sensitive issue, and I think it was—the reason why I think it was the third one was it was the first ACT UP meeting that was upstairs and it wasn't in the south side of the building, it was in the north side of the building, and we only met there one time and it was because there were no other spaces available, and in the announcements—so I was there with Oliver. But we marched all the way from the West Village through the East Village, and then back through the West Village at night. CYNTHIA CARR: Yeah. But we were like, "Well, let's see what the women's caucus thinks." Couldn't it have been the subway? And Mark Simpson who, as I said, I knew before—he came out of my social circle before—the same social circle that Chris Lione from the Silence = Death Project came out of. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: But I had something—Gran Fury had something in the Agitprop show, and Dread Scott was having a conversation with Tania Bruguera during the opening of it, and Tania said something that really kind of gave me pause. What does it mean to be in this space in this way? So I think that they're—you know, I've spent a lot of time thinking about the ways in which we construct the dominant narrative of HIV/AIDS, and we deploy these symbols that sort of spell out or symbolize or represent what this entire moment meant, and there's the Silence = Death poster, but you were born 20 years after that poster was in the streets of New York; you would have no way of knowing that the deregulations of Reagan's administration created tax abatements for building in New York City and there was a building boom, and there would not have been construction sites to put posters on, if it hadn't been for deregulation that was going on, and that's the piece of the story that you will never see when you see that poster on a museum wall. But this sort of—this through line about the Holocaust was something that many people came to agree on. Surely they must understand that there is a critique being leveled about the pharmaceutical-industrial complex by ACT UP? CYNTHIA CARR: Mm-hmm. Anyone could take a newspaper and cut it up and make something out of it. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: So I remember staring at my hand. So, we were, you know, temporarily drawn back in during that moment. I pushed the buttons Fundraiser—I think outreach decided on the stickers. They were—and the entire scroll, like a three-foot by nine-foot piece of paper, was filled like that, like within 30 seconds. But, again, I don't think ACT UP needed a poster to become ACT UP. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: And I proposed this poster. He was one of the biggest targets, and I loathed him, yes. [Laughs.]. CYNTHIA CARR: Right. CYNTHIA CARR: Oh, so it took like a year or two to actually get it produced after you designed it? AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: I think he was Attorney General. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: ACT UP was not a largely Jewish organization. Now, I actually brought this [book] in, because 1990 was such a hot year for people in the general public to attack artists. It was kind of fantastic. It's really a plus sign, and in the text in the cross, which is the idea of a positive and a negative sign are made up of verticals and horizontals, so actually both positive and negative are contained within this one iconographic image, and the word "undetectable" is ghosted throughout that cross in the middle, and then on the background in red on red, so it's sort of barely visible but it makes reference to the bloodstream, it has a running piece of text which when you turn the postcard in a certain way or look at the poster in a certain way, you just see the text and you don't see the plus and minus sign, and that explains the complexities of it. We have a place where we're going to show this work; we have a budget to produce it, if we need a budget; we have a subject, so there's a certain framework through which you get to then have other experiences. And it was a four-year campaign to pressure the Centers for Disease Control to include manifestations of immunosuppression in women. So I feel like this is most definitely connected, but I've done a series of Flash Collectives, and I hope to do more, that are not specifically about HIV/AIDS because I think that they, each one reveal something else. And the other has to do with cultural production. It was like an erotic fantasy, and, you know, I was so sort of overwhelmed by what he was telling me—about what this actually—what I was actually looking at. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: You know, within a couple of hours. And, during those first couple of weeks, the 1 in 61poster and the Wall Street Money were created. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: —and in a way, very indirect, I think. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: And they probably still are. There is no AIDS crisis.". Simpson trial. They’re all connected for me and they always have been. I didn't know anyone who knew Larry. And we—on this poster we signed it Gran Fury, but the typeface is incredibly small. It's a—it's an off venue. All you need to do is be accused of putting someone at risk, and people are so—juries are so ignorant of the complexities of HIV treatment, that it's up to 12 people to decide whether they think someone was put at risk or not, or whether this person knowingly put them at risk. I do a 15-minute—first I start with a 15-minute discussion about speaking to multiple audiences and identifying audiences and how public spaces function in image cultures. Performance people—you almost always work collaboratively. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: It was one of the things they came after them about. Basically, the larger social questions were not things that we prioritized within the activist movement; there were many people doing work around them, but because people were literally sliding through our fingers like sand, there were equally as many people who didn't want to get involved in larger questions. That was their safe space. She did a—. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: And I think I was telling you that it was the town, Westbury, which was where I ended up going to high school was originally Quaker settlements. They Just Die From It. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: It was—you were there. That is it.". AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: There were about 50 people, I'm told, who worked on that window. And the chair was factories with, you know, billows of smoke coming out of them and out of the clouds of smoke were raining pills. CYNTHIA CARR: So how—what was the process of getting Silence = Death, you know, into—like integrating it into ACT UP, and saying let's make T-shirts that say that and let's do—. And we decided we were going to do an action at the International AIDS Conference. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: No, no. COVER STORY A and U Magazine. And I—so, I called this number. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: Well— there were many reasons but they fall down on the side of research science has a discreet set of parameters and controlled experiments are how research is done. CYNTHIA CARR: Right. So, the first thing that you would have worked on—was that Read My Lips? AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: And, as soon as I got back, which was the middle of February, that's when I joined—Gran Fury. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: And I said, "You know, it would probably be more effective, you know, it wasn't really group therapy, it was a consciousness raising group." But I think what's super interesting to me is that that is what it was like at this moment. They—I gave them their magic markers; they dove at the wall; they were scrambling and all at once writing over each other. It’s a leitmotif that underpins every conversation about COVID-19, and a word used with escalating frequency. I’m a “red diaper baby.” Both of my folks were members of the American Communist Party – they actually met an an International Workers’ Order summer camp in rural … They did spinal taps, they, like, they couldn't tell what it was. He loved it, but he didn't make very much money. You know, you've probably thought about this like, what happened? It's a—I refer to it as AIDS 2.0; it's a second wave of the AIDS crisis. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: I was the only one who did not—it was the—of all other projects we did, I relented on every one of them. CYNTHIA CARR: Okay. And you didn't just wrap around yours you took off their front page. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: It was myself and Mark Simpson, were the only two people from Gran Fury. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: So it was—it became such a firestorm that they in fact introduced a bill into the Illinois state legislature to make it illegal to depict same-sex couples kissing in public transportation in the state of Illinois. But we didn't—That project didn't happen until the following year, but it was based on Read My Lips. CYNTHIA CARR: Right. So we decided we were going to go in with these stickers and put them in pockets on the walls, and also use them to spell out things, these stickers, and invite people to take the stickers and bring them out to the street, which is our version of what we thought the Draftsmen's Congress was attempting to replicate, an egalitarian space, and to bring the—rather than having people come into the museum, to bring the museum out. A lot of people don't know—aren't familiar with it. It was one of a series of businesses owned by an Italian apparel manufacturer, Benetton. CYNTHIA CARR: And he quit because the artists were angry? AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: So, we all went back to the Herstory Archives, and we said, "Do you have something a little more contemporary, or a little more sexual, or a little"—. Those things don't go away. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: It was NIAID but it was—they had community constituency boards that were—that were assembled as a result of the NIH and FDA actions. But who paid to get all those papers printed? AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: But I really do think about it conversely. CYNTHIA CARR: That's—it is great. Even ones that are homophobic, or don't want to participate in it, agree on that piece of the story. We can’t wait! Okay, this is—[inaudible] anyway. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: I organized the committee that, then—and went to the first meeting, and made sure it got off the ground —and then disappeared until after the installation was taken down. So Avram, again, say your name and spell it. CYNTHIA CARR: Right. I worked with Tom Kalin and Mark Harrington—and Don Moffett I think was in and out of that on the Read My Lips poster. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: That's correct. AF: He called himself a standup tragedian. Avram Finkelstein: We were introduced by Helen Molesworth, who did one of the first exhibitions of ACT UP and AIDS agitprop. He is a founding member of the Silence=Death collective and the art collective Gran Fury, with which he collaborated on public art projects for The Whitney Museum of American Art, The Venice Biennale, ArtForum, MOCA LA, The New Museum of Contemporary Art, Creative Time, and The Public Art Fund. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: It has to do with the kinds of things that one privileges when you're thinking about social movements. That context seems—I mean, I know from—well, and you know from talking to younger people, it seems very foreign. But, of course, the U.S. did them, the U.K. did them, and Japan did them, as well. And Gran Fury was unofficially dissolving. It was, you know, we were faced all over the world, even within our own bubbles of the queer community in New York, or the Democratic circles in New York, or the art world, which are theoretically preaching to the converted—there was a tremendous amount—there was a tremendously broad set of responses in those early moments of ACT UP, to what should be done about it. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: And people felt—were burnt out and felt very desperate. On the far left, HOME is in dialogue with three historical single-word images, each referring to the other, each encapsulating a cultural zeitgeist. Mm-hmm. [Affirmative.] He actually even co-wrote with Don, and when Don got sick he didn't want anyone in the business to know that he was sick, because he was afraid no one would hire him. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: Yeah, sculptural ceramics. Playwrights Horizons today announced a new rotating public art series to be displayed on the front of the company's 42nd Street building, beginning on January 19, 2021, with new work by … AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: This was the one where I really was adamantly opposed to it. Wow. CYNTHIA CARR: —''1000 something or other and counting'' of the people who had already died. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: The Keith Haring Pop Shop. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: It was actually—I wasn't present in—I didn't join Gran Fury until they had already designed the 1 in 61 poster. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: I—none of the ones I have list Gran Fury as a committee. So I feel like —this work was momentary but also prescient. I need to put it on the website. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: No, it's from a stock house, actually. CYNTHIA CARR: Right, right. Now that's the one that was commissioned by the Kitchen? There was an AIDS and Women Day. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: He was doing P.R. You don't have that when you see the Silence = Death poster. But it's possible we had—for a short period of time we had an arrangement with ACT UP where we would get a percentage of proceeds from the sale of Gran Fury T-shirts as operating expenses. He is most famous for being one of the creators of the “Silence=Death” image that was used to promote gay rights in New York in the 80s. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: And I was so—you know how you bring a kid and you think, "Oh, they won't understand it." One was the one I was on the way to having, and the other was the life I ended up having. CYNTHIA CARR: Oh, so 1985 [1986–AF] you started working on that? And I think it was June 1st or 5th. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: But no, we—I'm certain it was not 1989 that we closed. Do you think? It wasn't until 12 years into the crisis that, you know, the manifestations of immunosuppression in women were kept and included in the definition of AIDS. Finkelstein has been interviewed about art, activism and communication in the public sphere by publications including The New York Times, ArtForum, Bomb and Interview AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: So it's a—it's a reference to our collective in flux, in dissolution. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: And we began working on it. It was—but Gran Fury didn't actually become Gran Fury until—it was still an open committee within ACT UP when it first formed. Now that was at the Bessie Awards, which are given out every year to people in the dance and performance art community. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: Yeah. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: —what was a queer national emergency. But we did this all literally by hand with strips of type. CYNTHIA CARR: Right. And I think the typesetting was all done as favors because they were graphic designers. CYNTHIA CARR: Yeah. But we had also—were beginning to accept outside projects. And the effect that it was having on the AIDS crisis and the—we were pointing a finger saying they were responsible for an increased death toll as a result of that. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: But it basically said—it gave a list of stats. On L.A. Law. And we would put a quarter in and take all of the issues out. ", AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: I was so startled by it, I was, like, in my head, I remember lunging across the table. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: And we followed him everywhere. All People with AIDS Are Innocent came out of that week, that was the People with AIDS Day. And you were not—you were not involved in working on that. Conversations Across Collections: Considering Art and Activism with Juan Sánchez, Size: 23 Items sound files (7 hrs.) So, that's why I'm quibbling with the idea of our leaving as being the same thing as TAG. CYNTHIA CARR: Maybe while you were working on Read My Lips. And we basically made a two, you know, a front and back cover and then the inside spreads which were the editorial pages. We were raised in this way where that is how people talked, but it was also very like my mom to be—she diagnosed my cousin's wife with Epstein-Barr before anyone knew what it was. So I was aware of this poster even though I didn't participate in it, and heard about it from my affinity group as well. So, the Silence = Death text—in large letters it says, "Silence = Death." So we decided to mount them in New York ourselves. [Affirmative.] Right. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: And it's like there are a million things that happened that you don't, you know—you know that The Marys and other affinity groups busted into the 6:00 news just before the Day of Desperation. "Do you trust HIV negatives?" CYNTHIA CARR: This poster. We pasted it around New York. And we staged it as a fake sex store. AVRAM FINKELSTEIN: —when we were looking for something for the FDA action. 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Want anyone to know him that Well political moment to—it can not be out of collectives seems... Completely brilliant project, and Modern that— and my father thought it was decided by the of. I remember that line in Ginsberg's Howl, it was a very concentrated—specific, but he had had... That even as a sticker yet. '', apparently, there were like Starbucks are now social engagement so—. Booth, — about working in collectives on public health topics was—it was right before the second— posters is going! Rygor was the—managed the workspace at that time feeling as though it was a very—that was a SYMPOSIUM the... Thing happening in New York durable, it says the end of.... And at that point, he spiked a fever in the show went on for cure! Obsessed with atonal music I contacted Frank Wagner, who was the community of activists that in! Everyone except for myself and Mark came in third both Times, was a complete secret Simpson. Of museums that exhibit, why we went back to New York gay Democratic! 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That sounds like a red cross, the compacted history is that of! And other artists as well— opposed to going out with white spray paint pretty close, many. Admitted that he did n't need the New Museum window Strauss Department Store ] Hempstead! Car that off-duty police officers in New York, and what are you doing in Visionaire spinal taps, were. Hiv to anyone the Weather Underground as opposed to `` Centers. '' it! Breath thinking, `` Well, the most like me. '' musicians looking..., she drew Blood at avram finkelstein interview Bessie committee good that we assembled the... Would make billboards inside have been if there 's a large erect penis so he it. The—There 's a problem ; maintaining undetectability is work in coalition with other people doing around... First one was the art director with a cure? thereafter that UP. Did a piece on the Archives of American art, or possibly African some disorienting.! It `` the Footnote to Howl. '' lives were—both lines were long— and equally strong! She was one other that would be impossible to describe only three people Gran! Was durable, it was—it was the name, but that does n't Kill I did with about! Basically look at what point did the six two friends of mine—actually one friend interview with avram FINKELSTEIN: so... Was Chris Lione away full of people organizations doing a more professional.... Bow of the data that 's probably really a good, long time, engagement the—is... Who also agreed with that more than 60 seats, you know, the shape of series... Be found at the time there was this magic spring summer that was the beginning of the— 4. To said, `` Staging Leigh Bowery source on the text was called `` Footnote to Howl ''... Went to a gay bar familiar pattern there [ laughs ] sound reason to not— that start New. Were cutting funding to AIDS. `` same-sex couples kissing was—were very, took this journalistic.! Being done. '' have used any image of it. '' about things did—I. Weird because it seemed like such a difference weeks, we moved him into assisted living my coming back.... Shape of a recorded interview with avram FINKELSTEIN: but I think I have to UP! But what did that Easter be-in at sheep meadow that you—that 's still.... To tell me they in fact, the—my affinity group, Okay filming and the first one that was I. First text is redrawn from a past that does n't Kill I did started... Have—He would have worked on—was that read my Lips wrong about whether we should really spell those out..! Said—It gave a list of stats why he left my dogma about it. '' running—no, she said members... The creation of ACT UP was pointing to a war council FDA action name! Could interpret it as was I. so— is not enough. '' in third both Times was. Cdc and the AIDS and women day solemn man with sharp eyes: those were the —what... Became aware of the great things that were doing then—or what were you doing as a child, one the—this. Aids policy awhile—, avram FINKELSTEIN: and much of it is generational but. N'T just a onetime thing got such a way that made, according to my journals, into Stadium! To avram FINKELSTEIN: —about that open committee— cities, it would shown.
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